Program #L16—“The Theological Adventures of Johnny Lukewarm and Pastor Loophole: Eternal Security Doctrine”
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Radio Show Transcript, © 2001, Persuade The
World Ministries, Gordon James Klingenschmitt, Servant. Copying
and distribution (without editing) is highly encouraged.
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Opening introduction by Mark
McWilliams…
Welcome and thank you for joining this radio
broadcast of Persuade The World Ministries. You’re
about to hear our radio production of the book written and taught
by Gordon James Klingenschmitt, entitled “License To Sin,
The Number One Reason America Is Losing Its Moral
Foundation.” If you call us in the next hour,
we’ll mail you a free cassette tape of today’s
broadcast, which you can copy and give to your friends. Just
call our toll-free phone number: 866-Obey-God. That’s
toll free, 1-866-O-B-E-Y-G-O-D. Gordon James Klingenschmitt
is a graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, and a
seminary graduate of
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Thanks Mark. Today we continue our mini-drama entitled “The Theological Adventures of Johnny Lukewarm and Pastor Loophole.” You may remember our characters, Johnny Lukewarm, and Pastor Loophole from our last broadcast.
(Lower) “Please have a seat, Johnny. What seems to be
bothering you today?”
Johnny’s brow furrows with concern. (Higher)
“Pastor Loophole, I’m very upset about this particular
passage of scripture. It seems as though God is commanding
me to do something I really don’t want to do. Do I
really have to repent, and stop sinning, and obey God? Or
is there some other alternative?
(Lower) “Why, certainly there is, Johnny, you just relax.
I can offer you dozens of alternatives, and give you very logical
reasons why you don’t have to obey God.”
(Higher) “Oh, thank goodness. For a minute there, I
thought I’d actually have to change my behavior and obey
God!” Johnny breathes a sigh of relief. He sits
forward eagerly, with his itching ears searching for some way of
escape from the Holy Spirit’s conviction. But the
Spirit of God is grieved away, and He slowly withdraws his
conviction from Johnny’s life.
(Start) Now
let’s continue on with our very last Loophole, entitled
“Once Saved, Always Saved.” So here’s Pastor
Loophole again.
(Lower)
“Once you’re saved, you’re always saved, no matter
how much you sin.” says Pastor Loophole. “You
don’t have to repent and persevere in holiness until the
end. Just believe Jesus forgives you, and that makes it
true. And once you’re saved, Johnny, you can never
lose your salvation, no matter how much you sin. You can
sin as much as you want, and you’ll never lose your
salvation. The wages of sin isn’t death, it’s
just less jewels in your heavenly crown.”
(Higher)
“Wow, that’s great,” says Johnny Lukewarm. “I
almost thought I’d have to be holy to make it into heaven.
But now I know that God forgives me even while I continue to
enjoy my sins, and I can’t ever lose my salvation. I
feel very, very safe. Thanks Pastor Loophole, I feel much
more secure now.”
TIME
OUT! Let’s look at the scriptures everybody, and
rightly divide the word of truth. Let’s separate the
truth from the lies in the advice given by Pastor Loophole.
First, I want to acknowledge the true part. It’s true
that when believers listen to the shepherd’s voice and
follow him, no one can snatch them out of his hand. But the
lie is that you don’t have to be holy, and you can still go
to heaven. And the most dangerous lie is that you can feel
safe and secure, even while you continue to enjoy your sins.
Here’s the truth to replace that lie. Hebrews 10 says if
you deliberately keep on sinning, no sacrifice for sins is left,
but only judgment and raging fire that will consume the enemies
of God!
Now eternal security is a hot debate today. So let me
clarify from the start—I personally embrace eternal security
doctrine, as long as it requires holiness and persevering
to the end. But most eternal security preachers refuse to
demand holiness. They say, you can sin as much as you
please, and you’ll still go to heaven, because you’re
eternally secure, you’re safe. But I say, be holy.
Without holiness, no one will see the Lord. In Jesus
name I rebuke any preacher out there, who intentionally or
accidentally, by argument or omission, lets people think they can
trifle with sin, wallow in it, and still go to heaven. You
preachers are working for the devil himself.
Just imagine
a young man, who thinks he’s eternally secure, and saved and
going to heaven, when he’s really going to hell. He
wallows in his sins, and delays repentance, because you told him
holiness was optional. But then he’s shocked on the
day of judgment, when Jesus says, I never knew you. Depart
from me you evildoers. For that young man, false assurance
of salvation is the most dangerous lie in existence. Now
how can we preach eternal security properly, without giving
people false assurance that they’re saved, when they’re
really not saved? By saying, be holy. Without
holiness, no one will see the Lord.
Most
eternal security preachers do what I call “Scripture
Nullification.” They use the half of the Bible they
like, to nullify the half of the Bible they don’t like.
If I read scripture “x”, they say, “Well that
verse can’t be true because of scripture “y.”
They use one scripture they like, to nullify and brush aside
another scripture they dislike. This is scripture
nullification. Shouldn’t we instead try to find a
theological model which incorporates both the scriptures we like
and the ones we don’t? I propose such a model in my
book, which I believe sustains all the scriptures on both sides
of the eternal security debate, without just nullifying the
difficult half. If you want to read a balanced approach to
this, write us and get a copy of this book you’re hearing me
teach from.
But for
now, let’s just read a few scriptures. I can’t
convince anybody with my own arguments, so let’s just read
the scriptures about apostasy (losing your salvation). If
any single one of these scriptures proves you can lose your
salvation, then preachers who say “once saved, always saved,
no matter how much you sin” don’t stand not against me;
they stand against the Bible and against God.
2 Tim 2
says, If we disown Him, He will also disown us.[1] Let me read that
again. If we disown Him, He will also disown us. Now
Paul wrote this to Timothy, so don’t say it was addressed to
unbelievers. If we disown Him, He will also disown us. Wow.
Here’s
another one. Romans 8 says, If you use your lives to do
the wrong things your sinful selves want, you will die
spiritually.[2]
Paul is writing to Christians here, saying if they sin, they will
die spiritually. Let that sink in for a moment. If
you use your lives to do the wrong things your sinful selves
want, you will die spiritually. Wow.
Here’s
another one out of 2nd Peter: If they
have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our
Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled
in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than
they were at the beginning. It would have been
better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than
to have known it and then to turn their backs on [it] … Of
them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its
vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed
goes back to her wallowing in the mud.” [3] Now this is very
plain. Don’t twist it, just read it. The Bible
says these people know Jesus. He’s not talking about
unbelievers here. He says they know our Lord and Savior
Jesus Christ, but are again entangled in the corruption of this
world, and they end up in hell—worse off at the end than
they were at the beginning. Most eternal security preachers
describe 2nd Peter as a “difficult passage.”
But if you just read it plainly, it’s not difficult at all.
Now
here’s another “difficult passage,” from Hebrews
6. It is impossible for those who have once been
enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who
have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the
goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if
they fall away, to be brought back to repentance...[4] [Now he’s
talking about Christians here. These people lost their
salvation, even after they “were enlightened, tasted the
heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, tasted the goodness of
the word of God and the powers of the coming age.” You’ve
got to do a lot of mental gymnastics to water down this
scripture. I prefer to just read it and believe what it
says. If they fall away, it’s impossible for them to
be brought back to repentance. Wow. That makes me
fear God, and desire holiness. But if you water it down, it
makes holiness optional, and promotes disobedience. Don’t
believe that lie of the devil, that you can sin as much as you
want, and still have eternal security.
Here’s
another one, from 2nd John. Watch out that
you do not lose what you have worked for,…Anyone
who…does not continue in the teaching of Christ
does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching
has both the Father and the Son.[5]
[Watch out! If you don’t continue in the teaching of
Christ, you don’t have God.]
Here’s
another one out of 1 Corinthians 15: By this gospel you
are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I
preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.[6] [Now he’s
talking to believers here, who received the Gospel. But he
says you’re only saved if you hold firmly to the word
that was preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in
vain. Do you know what it means to believe in vain? It
means you believe the gospel, but then because you don’t
hold firmly to it, you believed for nothing.
In the
parable of the sower, Jesus says the seed that fell on rocky
places is the man who hears the word and at once
receives it with joy. But since he has no root,
he lasts only a short time. When trouble or
persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls
away.[7] … They
believe for a while, but in the time of testing they
fall away.[8]
[They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall
away. They fall away. They fall away. Don’t
fall away from the faith. Persevere until the end. Jesus
said he who stands firm to the end will be saved.[9]
I’ll
be back with more scriptures in a minute, but let’s take a
short break.
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Middle segment by Mark McWilliams…
Thanks Gordon. He’ll be back in just a moment. But first, do you know somebody who needs to hear today’s message? If you call our toll-free number in the next hour, 866-Obey-God, we’ll mail you a free cassette tape of today’s broadcast, which you can copy and give to your friends. All our tapes are copyable and free, but please remember we need your donations to stay on the air and to give away these free tapes. So please pray and obey, then send us your best possible donation, after you receive your free cassette. (Gordon: Hey time out! If it’s your first time calling us, no donation is required! Just call us!) Our toll free number is 866-Obey-God, that’s 1-866-O-B-E-Y-G-O-D. And please specify you’re requesting today’s program. Do you believe America needs to hear these messages? If so, then we need you to sponsor us, by joining the Persuader’s Club with a monthly pledge of just $15. If you join the Persuader’s Club, we’ll also send you an autographed copy of Gordon’s book that you’ve been hearing. Just visit our web-site at persuaders-club.com. Or call us in the next hour at 866-Obey-God. Right now, let’s return to Gordon James Klingenschmitt.
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Thanks
again, Mark. Let’s read a few more scriptures on
apostasy, or losing your salvation. We list more than 50 of
these in my book, but we can only read a few here.
Here’s
one out of 2 Chronicles 15. I’m going to read it three
times, slowly. I want you to let this scripture sink into
your heart. The LORD is with you when you are with him. If
you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he
will forsake you. Here it is again. The LORD is with
you when you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by
you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you. Now some
of you eternal security preachers are getting angry right now,
but I’m just reading your Bible out loud to you. Let’s
read it one more time. The LORD is with you when you are
with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you
forsake him, he will forsake you. Wow.
Here’s
another one. Did you realize that the Jews lost their
salvation? Jesus said, ‘I tell you that the
Here’s
another one out of Matthew 24. At that time many
will turn away from the faith…the love of most will grow
cold, but he who stands firm to the end will
be saved.[12] Perseverance is mandatory for
salvation. If you don’t stand firm to the end, you
won’t be saved. Many will turn away from the faith,
losing their salvation. Wow.
Are you
getting something out of this? Here’s another one from
2 Peter 3. be on your guard so that you may not…fall
from your secure position.[13] [Now is Peter saying they can’t
fall from their secure position, or did he say, be on your guard,
so that you may not…fall from your secure position?]
And the
writer of Hebrews says, See to it, brothers,
that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns
away from the living God.[14] [He’s not writing to unbelievers
here, he calls them brothers, saying, don’t turn away from
the living God. Why bother with all these warnings? Why
didn’t he say, rest easy, you’re secure. You
can’t turn away from the living God. The warnings are
real, people. Don’t turn away from God.]
Now
here’s a very clear statement from 1st Timothy 4.
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon
the faith… Why does the Spirit clearly say that
some will abandon the faith, if it’s not possible to abandon
the faith? Now you can disagree with the Holy Spirit if you
want to, but the Spirit clearly says that some will abandon the
faith.
Now
here’s one from 1st Chronicles 28. If
you seek [God], he will be found by you; but if
you forsake him, he will reject you forever.[15] Did you know that
if you forsake God, he will reject you forever? Not just
for a little while, but forever. If you forsake him, he
will reject you forever. Wow. I’m just reading
the Bible here, people. If you forsake him, he will reject
you forever.
Now
here’s some from Ezekiel 18 and 33. Listen carefully.
If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits
sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man
does, will he live? None of the righteous
things he has done will be remembered. Because of the
unfaithfulness he is guilty of, and because of the sins
he has committed, he will die.[16]…If
a righteous man turns from his righteousness
and commits sin, he will die for it; because
of the sin he has committed he will die.[17]…The
righteousness of the righteous man will not save him
when he disobeys,…The righteous man, if
he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his
former righteousness.[18]…If
a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he
will die for it.[19] Wow. You know, that makes me fear
God, and desire holiness.
Those
are some hard scriptures. Let me finish with a nicer
one—one that supports real eternal security—the kind
that includes holiness. 1st John 5 says, We
know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin;
the one who was born of God keeps him safe,
and the evil one cannot harm him.[20] [This is real eternal
security—when God keeps you safe from your deadly sins.
You’ve got to be saved from your deadly sins, not just from
hell. Sanctification, not just fire insurance.]
Now
there’s a lot of preachers out there doing mental gymnastics
to try to avoid all these scriptures. I’d rather just
believe them, and read them plainly, the way they were intended.
(Lower)
“But they’re just talking about having less jewels in
your crown.” Says Pastor Loophole. “They’re
not talking about going to hell.”
That’s
a lie! Jesus said, If anyone does not remain
in me, he is like a branch that is thrown
away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown
into the fire and burned.[21] If you don’t remain in Christ,
you’ll be thrown away. You won’t just get fewer
jewels in your heavenly crown. Jesus said you’ll be
thrown into the fire and burned. Read it for yourself in
John 15.
We’ve
got to change our message everybody. Instead of preaching,
“Once you’re saved, you can sin as much as you please,
and you’ll always be saved,” we’ve got to say,
“Once you’re saved, persevere in holiness until the
end, and you’ll always be saved.”
(Higher)
“So how do I know when I’ve crossed the line, and lost
my salvation?” asks Johnny Lukewarm. But Johnny,
you’ve already crossed the line, because you don’t fear
God enough to immediately repent. If you’re walking in
sin right now, and you know about it, and you’re refusing to
repent, you’ve already crossed the line. You’re
already going to hell, unless you immediately repent.
The only
sins that send you to hell are the ones you don’t forsake.
If you want real security, fear God and forsake your deadly sins.
Don’t wallow in your sins—that’s dangerous. The
only real safety comes with consistent holiness.
Now it’s true that God will never forsake his children.
When God’s children occasionally sin, He doesn’t
quickly forsake them, He patiently chastens them, because the
Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he
accepts as a son.[22] But if you continue to sin without
repentance, don’t deceive yourself, by thinking you’re
a child of God: This is how we know who the children of God
are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do
what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not
love his brother. [23]
(Lower)
“Well those people were never really saved in the first
place…” says Pastor Loophole. But
that’s a cop-out. Why didn’t they get saved in
the first place? Whose fault is that? It’s your
fault they didn’t get saved in the first place, because you
told them holiness was optional. The reason they
“weren’t saved in the first place” is clear:
You told ‘em to just “accept Jesus as your Savior”
instead of demanding they “whole-heartedly surrender to the
Lordship of Christ.” They’ve never had a change
of governor! They’ve always ruled their own hearts!
Repentance was never mandated, so they never did it! They
read a shallow tract, said a quick prayer, believed they were
saved when the really weren’t, and they went on with their
worldly lifestyle. That’s why they weren’t saved
in the first place, because Pastor Loophole, you never demanded
they repent. That’s why they went back into the
world—because you never demanded they leave it in the first
place.
Pastor
Loophole, if you’re out there listening, here is God’s
word to you, from Ezekiel 3. When a righteous
man turns from his righteousness and does evil…he
will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die
for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be
remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his
blood.[24]
Pastor
Loophole, and all you pastors out there, God holds you
accountable for their blood, if you don’t warn them to
forsake their sins, and remain faithful to the end.
And Johnny
Lukewarm, if you’re out there listening, here is God’s
word to you: Continue to work out your salvation with
fear and trembling.[25]
Don’t die with unconfessed sin in your heart. Your
sins will destroy you unless you forsake them all immediately.
Always confess and forsake your sins, immediately, the instant
you notice them. Never delay repentance for even 30
seconds.
Keep
watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. Keep
watch, maintain holiness. Keep your lamps full of oil.
When the bridegroom returns suddenly, and you’re not ready,
you’ll say, ‘Sir! Sir!...open the door for us!’
But Jesus will reply ‘I tell you the truth, I don’t
know you.’ Therefore keep watch, because you do
not know the day or the hour.[26]
Let’s
pray together. Let’s get this right with God. Would
you pray these words along with me, to God? Go ahead and
say them out loud. “Father in heaven, I return to you
aggressively and I choose to remain close to you until I die.
I’m so sorry I’ve sinned against you. I want to
work out my salvation with fear and trembling. I choose to
love you forever, and persevere in holiness until the end. I
forsake all my known sins. And I renounce all those
teachers who told me that holiness was optional. God, I
invite you to come and rule my heart, right now, and I commit to
persevering in holiness until the end. In Jesus mighty
name, Amen.”
Did you
just pray with me? If you prayed with me, would you just
raise your right hand? Wherever you are, it’s OK.
Just raise your right hand up to God, as a sign that you prayed
with me, and gave your heart back to Him. Some of you are
receiving a physical healing in your bodies right now, as
God’s loving rulership takes over in your heart. But
if you prayed with me, can I ask you to write to me and get a
copy of this book you’re hearing me teach from? I’ve
been very fortunate and blessed to have this book read and
endorsed by people like C. Peter Wagner, and Professors Tony Campolo
and Jon Mark Ruthven, and Pastors Ted Haggard and Floyd McClung,
and Joy Dawson and Bill Hamon. So you know it’s
trustworthy. Now in our next broadcast we’re going to
tell you the secret to maintaining consistent holiness. So
I hope you’ll tune in again next time. Now I love you
and I care about you. So here’s Mark with more
information.
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Closing trailer by Mark McWilliams…
Thanks Gordon, and thanks everybody for
listening. Do you know somebody who needs to hear today’s
message? If you call our toll-free number in the next hour,
866-Obey-God, we’ll mail you a free cassette tape of
today’s broadcast, which you can copy and give to your
friends. All our tapes are copyable and free, but please remember
that we need your donations to stay on the air and to give away
these free tapes. So please pray and obey God about how
much these teachings are worth to you, and return to us your best
possible gift after you receive your free cassette. (Gordon:
Hey time out! If it’s your first time contacting us,
no donation is required! Just call us!) Our toll free
number is 866-Obey-God, that’s 1-866-O-B-E-Y-G-O-D,
and please specify you’re requesting today’s program.
Now do you believe
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<Many more transcripts and free MP3 radio shows CLICK HERE>
[1]
2 Tim
[2]
Rom
[3] 2 Pet 2:20-22 (NIV)
[4] Heb 6:4-6 (NIV)
[5] II Jn 1:8-9 (NIV)
[6] 1 Cor 15:1-2 (NIV)
[7] Matt 13:20-21 (NIV)
[8]
Luke
[9]
Matt
[10] Matt 21:42-43 (NIV)
[11] Rom 11:19-22 (NIV)
[12] Matt 24:12-13 (NIV)
[13] 2 Pet
[14] Heb
[15] 1 Chr 28:9 (NIV)
[16] Ezek
[17] Ezek
[18] Ezek 33:12 (NIV)
[19] Ezek 33:18 (NIV)
[20] I Jn
[21] John 15:6 (NIV)
[22] Heb 12:6 (NIV)
[23] I Jn
[24] Ezek
[25] Phil
[26] See Matt 25:1-13 (NIV)